{"id":105451,"date":"2019-11-05T14:26:10","date_gmt":"2019-11-05T19:26:10","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.gayfriendschat.com\/socialblog\/noelle-stevenson-jacob-tobia-talk-bringing-genderqueer-awesomeness-to-she-ra-season-4\/"},"modified":"2019-11-05T14:26:10","modified_gmt":"2019-11-05T19:26:10","slug":"noelle-stevenson-jacob-tobia-talk-bringing-genderqueer-awesomeness-to-she-ra-season-4","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.gayfriendschat.com\/socialblog\/noelle-stevenson-jacob-tobia-talk-bringing-genderqueer-awesomeness-to-she-ra-season-4\/","title":{"rendered":"Noelle Stevenson & Jacob Tobia talk bringing genderqueer awesomeness to \u2018She-Ra\u2019 Season 4"},"content":{"rendered":"

Noelle Stevenson & Jacob Tobia talk bringing genderqueer awesomeness to \u2018She-Ra\u2019 Season 4<\/b><\/p>\n

\"\"
Jacob Tobia & Noelle Stevenson<\/em><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n

When Netflix & Dreamworks debuted their rebooted version of the classic animated series, we had to wonder: Could She-Ra and the Princesses of Power<\/em> get any queerer?<\/a><\/p>\n

As it turned out, that answer is a qualified yes. Now four seasons in,\u00a0She-Ra<\/em>\u2014which we hailed as one of the best shows on TV last year<\/a>\u2013continues to expand in complexity, take storytelling risks and include queer characters. What began with a subtle lesbian<\/a> couple<\/a> has expanded to include families headed by same-sex<\/a> couples<\/a>, butch & femme characters and a cast of sexually-fluid heroes<\/a>. Much of the credit for that visibility should go to executive producer & head writer Noelle Stevenson<\/a>, the out lesbian<\/a> wunderkind who set her sights on She-Ra<\/em> after conquering the comic book world with her titles\u00a0Lumberjanes<\/em> and\u00a0Nimora<\/em>.<\/p>\n

Now\u00a0She-Ra\u00a0<\/em>takes the next step by introducing a genderqueer role, played by the noted nonbinary author and activist Jacob Tobia. Tobia, who has penned commentary for outlets like BuzzFeed<\/em> and\u00a0The Huffington Post<\/em> published their memoir\u00a0Sissy: A Coming of Gender Story<\/em> earlier this year, which has become one of the go-to texts for explaining the fine points of non-binary gender.<\/p>\n

<\/div>\n

Queerty caught up with Tobia & Stevenson just ahead of the Season 4 premiere of\u00a0She-Ra<\/em>. The show comes to Netflix November 5.<\/p>\n

So, you\u2019re on season 4 right now. That\u2019s impressive.<\/strong><\/p>\n

Noelle Stevenson: Thank you.<\/p>\n

How are you feeling? Four seasons in two years is pretty wild, and the show\u2019s been so well-received.<\/strong><\/p>\n

<\/div>\n

NS: You know, animation takes so long to make. To see people receiving it the way they hoped they would, picking up on the stuff they hoped they would, getting into the characters as much as we were, it\u2019s such a good feeling. To know that all of that planning and all of that hard work from so many talented people \u2013it\u2019s so great to see people responding to it like this. So honestly, it\u2019s been amazing. I feel so honored.<\/p>\n

The quality of the show continues to impress me. I should tell you both, I\u2019m not all the way through Season 4 yet. I was traveling on another junket this week, and United Airlines blocks Netflix on all their flights.<\/strong><\/p>\n

NS: Huh.<\/p>\n

<\/div>\n

I thought Netflix might want to know. Moving on. <\/strong>You\u2019re not afraid to take risks on this series, one of the biggest being ever-changing stakes, alliances, and developing characters. Characters really grow and change. How do you as a writer decide where to take a story, or how to take a risk?<\/strong><\/p>\n

NS: I think from my point of view, it\u2019s always worth it to try something to see how far you can push the format and the characters. That makes the characters feel more real. Honestly, for all these characters, it\u2019s been a long time coming. It\u2019s sort of ingrained in some of these characters that even if some of the situations we put them in might be surprising, my hope is that they look back at previous seasons and see the seeds have been there all along. There are flaws embedded in these characters, and they can\u2019t move forward without addressing the major flaws within themselves. So to put them in difficult situations\u2014it\u2019s our way of growing the characters and growing with <\/i>the characters. I think we\u2019re comfortable with the world, with the setting, with the character dynamics enough at this point that we can start challenging that, and questioning it. My hope is viewers recontextualize things that have happened in past episodes.<\/p>\n

\"\"
Glimmer, She-Ra & Bow<\/em><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n

That comes across. It will be interesting, when the show does conclude, to go back and see what hints you laid down for different plot twists. One of them, and one of the big risks this season, is with the character of Double Trouble. At what point did you decide you wanted to introduce the character way down the line like this?<\/strong><\/p>\n

<\/div>\n

NS: One of the privileges of getting to make a show like this for Netflix is that we get to plan out the entire arc of the show, whereas otherwise, we\u2019d be wondering when we were going to get a season pickup. We were able to work within a certain boundary to tell the story we wanted to tell. We treated it like next step of a story that had been planned out ahead of time. So a character like Double Trouble coming into play, we get to introduce when the time is right. I always knew that we wanted to use Double Trouble. Double Trouble is an incredible character, and introducing the shapeshifter dynamic, they are the perfect spark to light the powder keg that is the characters this season. So it really is Double Trouble\u2019s season, especially since I think all the characters are lying to each other in some way or other.<\/p>\n

Really?<\/strong><\/p>\n

NS: Glimmer is trying to put on the costume of the queen, who always makes the right decision and keeps everyone safe. Adora thinks she can finally live<\/a> up to the mantle of She-Ra. Bow thinks he can hold this group together through the power of his own perseverance. Catra thinks she\u2019s successfully cut off from her emotions. All of them have set up elaborate lies for themselves, and Double Trouble sees through all that. Double Trouble is above it all. They\u2019re not emotionally invested in the conflict like everyone else. They can really cut to the heart of our characters. They fit the conflict so organically.<\/p>\n

<\/div>\n

So why Jacob?<\/strong><\/p>\n

NS: Jacob brought this incredible, mischievous glint, this eternal smirk to the character.<\/p>\n

Jacob, you\u2019re not really known as an actor. So how did this job come to you?<\/strong><\/p>\n

<\/div>\n

Jacob Tobia: It\u2019s funny, because in this industry, and not being known as an actor, and not being an actor are two different things. I guess I didn\u2019t realize I needed to tell people: since I moved to LA I\u2019ve been signed with an agency. I audition for roles every month. I\u2019m putting myself on tape all the dang time. I\u2019ve been going into casting sessions. I grew up as an actor in the theatre. I did a little professional stuff at a regional theatre in North Carolina when I was in college. I just didn\u2019t know how to break in. I\u2019ve been auditioning for a long time. I think this was one of the first auditions I did, and the first major thing I booked.<\/p>\n

\"\"
Double Trouble<\/em><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n

Oh wow.<\/strong><\/p>\n

JT: I booked it back in January of 2018. So I\u2019ve been keeping this secret for a very<\/i> long time. I think that\u2019s part of the reason people are like why are you so excited about this? All you\u2019re doing is going on Twitter<\/i>. And I\u2019m like because I had to keep this a secret for a year and a half.<\/i> All I wanted to do was tell everybody. And we just got there. It\u2019s a really cool voice-over role of a lifetime. I recorded my audition in the closet, because that\u2019s the best place for acoustics. So I just auditioned from the closet like any queer actor.<\/p>\n

[Laughter]<\/i><\/p>\n

That\u2019s frighteningly on the nose.<\/strong><\/p>\n

JT: So for any casting directors reading this, I\u2019m available.<\/p>\n

Fantastic. Now, were you a fan of the original series?<\/strong><\/p>\n

JT: I\u2019m too young to have grown up on She-Ra.<\/em> But I was vaguely familiar with the 80s version. As soon as I booked this role, I very quickly binge-watched every episode on Netflix. I fell in love with it; it\u2019s like the campiest, cutest, low-key queerest thing ever. I\u2019m obsessed with all the lesbian<\/a> energy in the original that is now made more apparent in the reboot. So I became an instant fan.<\/p>\n

So what insight did Noelle give you into Double Trouble to get a handle on the character?<\/strong><\/p>\n

JT: Noelle was such an active part of the voice-over sessions. We also had Mary [McGlynn], our voice-over director too, who is incredible. The two of them together\u2026I could not have asked for better vocal or character direction.<\/p>\n

NS: They\u2019re so fun to watch, both the character and also Jacob when they do the voice, they bring so much fun and excitement to the character. They\u2019re so above it all, having so much fun playing with everybody else.<\/p>\n

Related: \u2018She-Ra\u2019 revivalist Noelle Stevenson on queering the iconic series<\/a><\/strong><\/p>\n

JT: The other thing that was really gorgeous is that it was one of those characters where I came in getting it. I knew who Double Trouble was the moment I read the script. I think it was one of those things, when we first worked together, we were like we both know who this is<\/i>. We both arrived at the same place. So I don\u2019t feel like we had to do a great deal of character work in terms of figuring it out. It just clicked so quickly. To me that\u2019s the power of authentic storytelling, and also feeling really safe on a set or in the booth. There was never a moment where I thought I need to make this more queenly, <\/i>or I need to butch it up a touch<\/i>. I knew I was on a super-safe set with an incredible group of queer creators. I will say about She-Ra<\/i> for a very long time: it\u2019s the most fun job I\u2019ve ever had.<\/p>\n

Awesome<\/strong>.<\/p>\n

JT: And I\u2019ve had a lot of jobs.<\/p>\n

\"\"
Catra & Hordak<\/em><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n

One thing I love about the show, and specifically about this character, is that it\u2019s not afraid to do what other movies and TV\u2014I\u2019m thinking of X-Men<\/a>\u2014<\/i>are afraid to do, which is look at gender and sexual fluidity. Like Mystique, Double Trouble is a shapeshifter. But you guys<\/a> on She-Ra <\/i>follow that notion to a logical conclusion. Do you see Double Trouble as gender or sexually fluid?<\/strong><\/p>\n

JT: I mean, I think that in terms of their gender, they\u2019re non-binary or gender fluid. They have a gender that is expansive. It comes to them both as who they are, but from their practice as an actor. As a performer, Double Trouble has rejected the notion that there are any roles they can\u2019t play. They can play every single person, and in order to do that, they have to understand every single person. Understanding the butchest man<\/a> or femmest lady<\/a> isn\u2019t outside the realm of possibility. So I think the shape-shifting\u2014and this is something they even say in the show\u2014at one point they say \u201cYeah, I can physically be anybody, but it\u2019s being someone emotionally that\u2019s the real trouble.\u201d That\u2019s where Double Trouble has a leg up on all other shapeshifters. They know this as a method actor.<\/p>\n

NS: I think for us, and I was so happy, when we introduced the concept of a nonbinary shapeshifter, we had a good number of trans<\/a> and nonbinary and gender-nonconforming people on our crew. So for us, we were just having fun. This was a character that we liked and saw ourselves in.<\/p>\n

Now was Netflix at all hesitant to allow the inclusion of a nonbinary character?<\/strong><\/p>\n

NS: I was so happy that the executives were also so excited by this character. They encouraged us to include Double Trouble\u2019s pronouns in the dialogue. We weren\u2019t sure how it would go over, but we wanted this to be an organic part of the tapestry of Etheria. We want this world to feel alive, and it is a world where gender is generally fluid. Honestly, one of the biggest outpourings of support was from our executives and producers. When we asked for non-binary actors to audition for the part, our amazing casting department found all these incredible non-binary actors. It was supported every step of the way.<\/p>\n

JT: Nonbinary and gender-nonconforming characters have always existed in sci-fi since the inception of the genre. It\u2019s just cool that, for a long time, the industry imposed this softening of the allegory\u2014being allegorical, queer, or trans<\/a> or non-binary\u2014but they couldn\u2019t make it explicit. The thing that\u2019s so cool about She-Ra<\/i> is that [Double Trouble] isn\u2019t the first character to be non-binary. But it is one of the first characters in this type of show to have that made explicit and canonical. Which is the coolest. We are canon!<\/p>\n

\"\"
Double Trouble<\/em><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n

So let\u2019s talk about that though. In prep for this interview, I was wracking my brain to come up with some image of a genderqueer person that I\u2019d seen or recognized as a kid, even subtextually. As a queer people yourselves, who are the characters that stand out in your mind?<\/strong><\/p>\n

JT: I was a nerd as a kid. I grew up on fantasy and sci-fi. I found my gender recognition in wizards since I was a kid.<\/p>\n

I think you\u2019re in good company. But wizards? How so?<\/strong><\/p>\n

JT: Yeah, and that goes across genre. In Yu-Gi-Oh<\/i>. In Lord of the Rings<\/i>. In Harry Potter<\/i>. In all these things I found the gender transcendentalism that I needed. When you think about it, wizards are often quoted as kind of gay<\/a>, but they\u2019re also quoted as gender nonconforming, especially in the context of a fantasy series. There\u2019s always the brute force people, the Aragorns of the world who ride into battle on a horse and use their strong bodies and their masculinity to fight. Then there\u2019s the Gandalf, who uses his determination and their wit and their dedication and their discipline to do more powerful things than anyone can imagine\u2026with shiny crystals and flowing robes, and long gorgeous locks and femme extravagance. It always felt like a place of recognition that way.<\/p>\n

What about you, Noelle? What characters did you have in mind in history? Who did you look at as genderqueer?<\/strong><\/p>\n

NS: I tell this story all the time. I was a huge Star Wars<\/i> fan growing up. The prequels were coming out when I was young, and I always loved the bounty hunters the most. But the bounty hunters were always male<\/a>. Then in [Attack of the Clones<\/i>] they introduce a female<\/a> bounty hunter. Star Wars<\/i> in both the originals and prequels have a pretty narrow definition of gender. If you\u2019re female<\/a>, you\u2019re either a dancer or a princess. And I never saw myself in those characters.<\/p>\n

Sure.<\/strong><\/p>\n

NS: But this character, Zam Wessell, has kind of been forgotten. She didn\u2019t make a big cultural impact.<\/p>\n

Hey, I know Zam Wessell. Dies on Coruscant. Hired by Jango.<\/strong><\/p>\n

NS: Yes! Thank you! And she uses female<\/a> pronouns, but at one point they think she\u2019s male<\/a>. Her costume is fairly androgynous. She was written as a male<\/a> character before George Lucas saw the performer and decided to give her the role. She also has short hair hidden under her helmet. As a kid\u2014I think I was 8 or 9 when it came out\u2014I saw her and my whole life was changed. This one-bit character in a not very good movie\u2014she\u2019s secretly a reptilian alien. I latched onto her so hard. Every story I\u2019ve told since then has kind of been about her. She has like three lines. She is alive for like 5 minutes then dies terribly. It\u2019s not a great role, but for me, it was everything I was looking for. A lightbulb went off. I ended up taking her picture to a hairdresser when I was 15 and saying \u201cI want this haircut.\u201d<\/p>\n

\"\"
Swift Wind, Bow & Sea Hawk<\/em><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n

NS: So shapeshifters are more androgynous or a little less clear-cut when it comes to gender expression, and hold this slightly alien version of themselves. It\u2019s something I\u2019m incredibly interested in. So honestly Double Trouble is the next iteration of my fascination with that character.<\/p>\n

JT: It\u2019s wonderful to have one who is openly named that way. That\u2019s what\u2019s important here: what Noelle has done with Double Trouble as a character is a historic leap forward for the genre. But it didn\u2019t come out of nowhere. We have a legacy of queer creators behind the camera<\/a> who have worked so hard for decades to get us to this point.<\/p>\n

Awesome. You should do a Zam Wessell movie, Noelle, now that Disney is pumping out Star Wars<\/i>. [Lucasfilm president] Kathy Kennedy, if you\u2019re reading this\u2026<\/strong><\/p>\n

NS: I would love that, but honestly, if I did, everyone would realize how much I\u2019ve just been doing Zam Wessell ever since. I did a whole graphic novel about a shapeshifter, and it was just Zam Wessell.<\/p>\n

[Laughter]<\/i><\/p>\n

Jacob, do you feel like the perception, or the public embrace of trans<\/a> and genderqueer people has changed since?<\/strong><\/p>\n

JT: Totally. We\u2019re at a point of visibility that is so exciting. There\u2019s an entire generation of people that have liberated themselves from this idea that gender is only one of two things. There\u2019s an entire generation of young folks that get that gender is nonbinary and that idea itself is really oppressive and shitty. We\u2019ve only gotten it through public education work and the work of artists. The cultural shift that\u2019s happening is overwhelming and permanent in my view. The work is far from done. I don\u2019t want people to think that because we have a character like Double Trouble on a show like She-Ra<\/i> that we\u2019re done. Visibility comes in stages, and we have many many more to go.<\/p>\n

So what can we expect in the future from Double Trouble and She-Ra<\/em>?<\/strong><\/p>\n

NS: Double Trouble, this is really their season to shine. But remember, they don\u2019t really follow the rest of the rules of the show. It\u2019s really fun just to experiment with them in different contexts.<\/p>\n

JT:\u00a0The thing about Double Trouble is that they can be anywhere, hiding in plain sight. I\u2019m just gonna leave the audience with that tantalizing a little bit.<\/p>\n

\"\"
Shadow Weaver & Glimmer<\/em><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n

Is Season 5 happening?<\/strong><\/p>\n

JT: I\u2019m not sure what\u2014<\/p>\n

Booming Netflix Voice From On High: NO NEWS ON SEASON FIVE YET.<\/p>\n

[Laughter]<\/em><\/p>\n

Hookay\u2026can I at least ask about more He-Man? Will he be appearing?<\/strong><\/p>\n

NS: There is more coming. He-Man is a little less\u2026we\u2019re not going to have much in the way of He-Man, but we do have some pretty cool, subtle touches of lore coming up that tie it into Masters of the Universe<\/i> lore in a cool way.<\/p>\n

Can\u2019t wait.<\/strong><\/p>\n

She-Ra and the Princesses of Power returns to Netflix November 5.<\/em><\/p>\n

<\/div>\n
\n<\/a> <\/a>\n<\/div>\n

\nwww.queerty.com\/noelle-stevenson-jacob-tobia-talk-bringing-genderqueer-awesomeness-ra-season-4-20191105?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+queerty2+%28Queerty%29<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Noelle Stevenson & Jacob Tobia talk bringing genderqueer awesomeness to \u2018She-Ra\u2019 Season 4 Jacob Tobia & Noelle Stevenson When Netflix & Dreamworks debuted their rebooted version of the classic animated series, we had to wonder: Could She-Ra and the Princesses of Power get any queerer? As it turned out, that answer is a qualified yes. … Continue reading Noelle Stevenson & Jacob Tobia talk bringing genderqueer awesomeness to \u2018She-Ra\u2019 Season 4<\/span> →<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2466,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[107],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-105451","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-news"],"yoast_head":"\nNoelle Stevenson & Jacob Tobia talk bringing genderqueer awesomeness to \u2018She-Ra\u2019 Season 4 - GAYFRIENDSCHAT.com<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.gayfriendschat.com\/socialblog\/noelle-stevenson-jacob-tobia-talk-bringing-genderqueer-awesomeness-to-she-ra-season-4\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Noelle Stevenson & Jacob Tobia talk bringing genderqueer awesomeness to \u2018She-Ra\u2019 Season 4 - GAYFRIENDSCHAT.com\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Noelle Stevenson & Jacob Tobia talk bringing genderqueer awesomeness to \u2018She-Ra\u2019 Season 4 Jacob Tobia & Noelle Stevenson When Netflix & Dreamworks debuted their rebooted version of the classic animated series, we had to wonder: Could She-Ra and the Princesses of Power get any queerer? 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